SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Going back to this idea of playing the recording to H - this is not going to accomplish anything like what you hope for. Debate aside, and taking it as granted that he is gaslighting and manipulating: people who engage in this behavior, regardless of the motivation, are not going to have the insight on it to be able to handle being confronted with a recording in a productive way. The sort of communication issues you've described here will require work in therapy.

Additionally, presenting the recordings to H is not going to result in any more truth about what is happening. Your play-by-play is more than enough truth for you. You're not going to know he gaslighted or mischaracterized more or less than you already explained. If anything, what you will get from that conversation is that he tries to manipulate your perception of the recording. If you truly believe there is a chance what you see in the recording is wrong, the place to take that is therapy, not the source of the alleged manipulation.

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"I'm sorry you're upset" "I'm sorry you feel like that's what's happening" are not actual apologies as they do not demonstrate the apologizer taking accountability for their actions.

torso1500,

I have decided to scrap the recordings and see how the study guide responses work out. You're right; they probably were not even going be helpful. I mentioned the one recording I did take, and very shortly afterwards found out that my H didn't know I was taking it. I thought he saw my screen when I turned on voice memos, but I guess not. He reacted with such anger and I hurt that I was like, "Oh. I don't think this is a good idea anymore." IDK, maybe that's what Pogre was trying to tell me earlier and it just didn't sink in until I was face-to-face with his reaction and out of must-protect-from-gaslighting mode. I've seen a lot of effort from BH to communicate better the past few days, and I'm so appreciative of it.

I'm not apologizing for other people ascribing tone and intention to my posts, and micro dynamics to the conversation, that aren't there. I know what my intentions and meanings were and I shared them honestly. Like I said, I am genuinely sorry that many of the posters here had the emotional reaction that they did. I know that's not fun. But their interpretation is not within my control, and they either don't believe me when I offer clarification, or they simply disregard it, so I'm giving up on trying to provide it. That's part of exiting conversations with people who are not interested in the fixing of miscommunications.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 6:51 PM, Monday, May 25th]

How do you explain why you were so out of touch with how your husband would feel about you recording your arguments?

I expected him to be angry, because I didn't think he wanted to be accountable for what he was saying. I didn't expect the hurt. I'm not even sure I understand why he felt hurt, other than him not knowing the recording was being taken..? I could see how anything that feels sneaky, nonconsensual, unknown and revealed later would be triggering after the infidelity. I wonder if there's more.

What also doesn't make a lot of sense to me is his reaction to finding out about the recording of the conversation, after he agreed to the recordings during the conversation, however out of synch his tone and body language were with the words of acquiescence, and after he refused to explore or express his reasons for dissent despite me asking him to. It felt like he was saying "you're forcing me into this," even though I wanted to make the decision together. I speculate that maybe he retained that mindset and felt forced when he found out the conversation was recorded? It's hard to keep straight.

I should find out though. I'll have to ponder your question a bit more later, I think. It's a good question.

Similarly, do you understand why people on this forum believe you owe some accountability for your past statements and blow-ups?

my comment on the recording also stands with regard to running through your study guide responses with him. He is not going to have the insight to handle that discussion productively. Neither of you are going to get through the interaction differently than previous discussions without outside help.

There is a fundamental sort of, I don't have a great word at the moment...maybe non-recognition works somewhat, to "sorry you feel that way" statements that tend to have the effect of leaving the receiver insulted or hurt rather than acknowledged. What you are saying about not being able to change others and such is true, but I think I'm saying that "sorry you feel that way" doesn't come across positively or even neutrally. There is a certain bitterness to it and it is typically perceived as focusing on perceived flaws in the receiver, when an apology is about your actions. If you see no harm in your actions, don't apologize.

We'll see about the study guide responses. I haven't needed to use them yet.

How do you express sympathy for someone's feelings when their misinterpretation of the interaction wasn't your fault and they won't accept your clarification?

Why is it so fucking hard to be a person. I hate this

How do you express sympathy for someone's feelings when their misinterpretation of the interaction wasn't your fault and they won't accept your clarification?

You seem to be operating under the delusion that everyone processes information in the same way. We don't. That is just a simple facet of human consciousness. What's particularly striking is your assertion that someone misinterprets something you've said or written, as if the error or fault is theirs, without allowing them their individuality.

I am the authority on what I meant and my intentions.

This is why I gave the example of the dog/cat/sprained ankle conversation. If I tell you I'm struggling to walk my dog because I sprained my ankle, and you go, "Why? I took care of my cats just fine when I sprained my ankle," Like clearly we're not on the same page.

If I say, "Oh, well you see I have a dog, and they need to be walked. And walking is hard with a sprained ankle..." it doesn't make sense for them to go "I understood you just fine. Clearly you're just making excuses for why you can't care for your pet!"

And I'm over here confused as to what just happened and why the conversation just took a turn like that. So I try to fix the miscommunication again, but so often the other person just insists they understood me just fine and I'm just being "defensive" because I "don't like" what they had to say, and if I just "dropped my ego" I would see that it's good advice...

And it might have been good advice that I would take... Except for I have a dog and not a cat.

Like there are just some indicators in a conversation that people pick up on when the other participant misunderstood what was said, or misinterpreted intent. These misunderstandings are often amplified over textual conversations because tone of voice and body language are removed.

So it's not that you're not allowed to have your feelings about whatever is said, no matter how you happen to perceive it. It's just that there was a miscommunication... and lots of people here are not interested in fixing miscommunication when it happens. I'm finding out that there's literally nothing I can do about it, and once someone demonstrates they're not interested in fixing the miscommunication, well, I'm inclined to say "I'm sorry that's how you perceived it," or "I'm sorry you feel that way." Because I do genuinely wish they had understood and felt better than they do as a consequence of the misunderstanding. I have sympathy for them, but I have no recourse.

In the context of this thread, I perceived Forever coming at me super aggressively with the insistence that I don't understand my husband's pain and I'm not willing to sit with him in it. I told her that's not true of me, nor my situation (and like, obviously I would know, right? Because I have privileged insight to my own thoughts, emotions, and life, and she is an outsider looking at it from this website... And I literally went and ask the person to whom it matters most whether he thought I understood his pain, just as confirmation that I'm not missing something, and he said yes. So it really can't be argued that I don't get it...)

So I wondered, why is she doing that? This interaction doesn't make sense, so what am I missing here? So I started looking for context, starting with who she is and what she might be experiencing right now. I remembered what she wrote a few days ago, and the feelings she expressed. I looked at other posts of hers for additional data. I hypothesized that after all this time, she's still making herself "sit in the fire," and hasn't given herself compassion and grace, nor seemed to be recognizing all the work she did to become a better person and a safe partner. (That's why I brought up her authorship of the pinned article, "The Work." Like she is a guru on the subject) I wondered if she was clinging to the shame as a form of self-punishment to keep herself from committing infidelity ever again, as she recommended I do in an earlier post. But you don't need to rely on shame as a safety net when you've done the work, right? Which is what I was trying to convey to her. Like I said, I was trying to understand her as a person.

But it just got interpreted as a defense mechanism and me "digging through her history for ammunition" and "weaponizing her shared feelings" to "undermine her point," which didn't apply to me regardless of my intention. And I know for a fact that that's not what I was doing. Like at all. It's honestly perplexing to me. I keep trying to tell you guys that you got me wrong, and suggest that maybe you're predisposed to hear things that a "typical wayward" would say, rather than what it is I'm actually telling you, and you give me all sorts of negative attributes just for trying to fix the misunderstanding. It's the same thing that happened in the past, and I expect it will be the same in the future. I've just accepted it and I'm trying to control my responses to it, because that's the only thing I can control. I'm not going to apologize for that.

Fuck I just did it again, didn't I? When will I learn that this isn't working

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 10:20 PM, Monday, May 25th]

[How do you express sympathy for someone's feelings when their misinterpretation of the interaction wasn't your fault and they won't accept your clarification?

You can acknowledge their feelings without using a sorry statement. The thing is, in these interactions where you are using "sorry you feel that way," the other party feels bad AND they feel that your choice of communication/behavior is a cause of the bad feelings. While you feel that their flaws in interpretation of your communication are the sole cause of the bad feeling. So, then the question is how usefully or credibly will your sympathetic expression of any type be received? If the goal is radical honesty that you're not accountable, no comment might be the most neutral approach.

Why is it so fucking hard to be a person.

Therapy helps.

[This message edited by torso1500 at 10:21 PM, Monday, May 25th]

Aside from a couple of perceived commonalities, I don't think anyone here thinks of you as a typical wayward.

Most of the "typical waywards" I've interacted with on these forums are far less combative, more understanding, and much easier to talk to. I personally have a soft spot for waywards who demonstrate true remorse and really want to do the right things. My wife is one.

[This message edited by Pogre at 10:32 PM, Monday, May 25th]

When was the last time a new WS came here and was recognized as having adequately demonstrated "true remorse?" And what makes you the authority on what that means, Pogre? ETA: outside of your own marriage, I mean.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 11:12 PM, Monday, May 25th]

I'm no authority on anything, and I didn't say anything about an "adequate" amount of remorse. I personally think it's more about sincerity and maybe a dash of humility than adequacy, but that's just me. I'm sure other opinions will vary.

I just haven't run into anyone here before who's so quick to litigate almost every paragraph with multi-quoted responses to argue just how wrong everyone else is with so much disdain and hostility when, I assume, advice or perspective is the reason for posting here to begin with.

I'm not saying every single one of your replies are like that, but quite a few are. You seem to want very little of either advice or perspectives that don't already align with your preconceived notion of what said advice or perspective should be. It's your way or the highway. IF you're like this with your husband it's no wonder you keep hitting a wall.

Most of the people interacting with you appear to really want to help you and actually care, but you don't seem to see it that way. Trying to talk to you is kinda like trying to hug a cactus.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go put on my Kevlar vest...

Really the only thing I can say right now is, in the complete history of this site, back to the early 2000s, of all the WS, male or female, foreverlabeled is in the top tier class of about 5.
You would do well to just really understand what she’s been trying to say. No matter how much your psyche wants to reject it.

I'm no authority on anything,

Okay, so you're not the authority on what constitutes "true remorse" (outside of your own marriage) and yet in your previous comment you insinuated that I am not truly remorseful. Got it.

and I didn't say anything about an "adequate" amount of remorse.

You read what I wrote wrong. What I said was:

When was the last time a new WS came here and was recognized as having adequately demonstrated "true remorse?" I personally think it's more about sincerity and maybe a dash of humility than adequacy, but that's just me

Here the word "adequately" modifies "demonstrated," not "remorse" or the adequacy of the WS. I was asking, when was the last time a new WS here exhibited "true remorse" adequately enough for someone to verbally recognize them? Because I do a LOT of reading here and I don't remember a single time during my membership. I would love to be proven wrong though. I would love to believe this community is able to do that and regularly does so. (spoiler: I don't.)

I just haven't run into anyone here before who's so quick to litigate almost every paragraph with multi-quoted responses to argue just how wrong everyone else with so much disdain and hostility

Sigh. I have already explained that I correct misunderstandings and miscommunications. I point out when the speaker has indicated they don't understand me or my situation correctly, and why, consequently, the advice they are so insistent on, doesn't actually apply to my situation; it's not that their advice is "wrong." Like I said, if I start out by saying I have a dog and a sprained ankle, and they give advice based on their experience with having a cat, their advice might very well be applicable and helpful to someone who has a cat... It's just that I have a dog. But are they willing to acknowledge I have a dog and adjust their responses? No. They double down instead.

Instead of interpreting the attempt to fix the miscommunication and provide clarification as a desire to understand and be understood as an interactive, mutual participant in a conversation that's supposed to flow two ways... You guys just denounce me as "litigative."

Quoting things isn't seen as an effort to keep the response thorough, clear, and organized with direct, accurate quotes; it's seen as nit-picking.

My tone is read as disdainful, hostile, and lacking humility, despite me feeling neither hostile nor disdainful, attempting to connect and introspect with people here, and being perfectly willing to admit when I'm wrong, what I missed, and where I could be doing better. I have actively looked for the latter. I have avoided breaking guidelines and attempted to keep responses respectful. I have responded appreciatively to multiple comments in this thread alone, in addition to in previous threads, but that conveniently fails to register in your memory. And you guys will continue to deny any sort of bias no matter how much you twist what I say to fit your idea of who I am.

You seem to want very little of either advice or perspectives that don't already align with your preconceived notion of what said advice or perspective should be. It's your way or the highway.

That's not true at all. I predicted people would say this in the beginning, didn't I? Again, it's that people are giving me advice based on miscommunication, and they have no interest in fixing the miscommunication. They deny the misunderstanding or misinterpretation, and call me things like "defensive" and "argumentative" because they perceive a rejection of the advice, and they fill in the reason for the rejection with the bias they hold. It's honestly so fucked up. And you'll read this and do the exact same thing; I'm willing to bet money on it.

Most of the people interacting with you appear to really want to help you and actually care, but you don't seem to see it that way.

I understand that they believe they're being helpful.

This site is all about help. That help is based on peers offering their guidance, insights and support. As with all guidance it’s best if offered gently and kindly, just as it’s best if the person being guided accepts the guidance with understanding and grace.
We all know that’s not the way things always work out. God knows I tend to push and be direct. However – when the posting becomes confrontational… maybe it’s better just to step away.

If you think the OP isn’t listening or isn’t really here to get guidance or advice… there are plenty of others that need our help. It would be much appreciated there.

We hope that those that do stay within our guidelines and undeniably some of them are being broken on this thread – or at least stretched to their limit. Not only by the OP, but by others contributing here. We kindly ask posters to really consider if their contributions are within the guidelines and if they add anything positive for this thread.

One thing this site values above all is the privacy of it’s members, and we – the staff – have no way of verifying who registers. We have been monitoring the OP for some time based on past history, but since this site is all about help, we have been hoping that this time she would get the help she seems so desperate to get – although seemingly not willing to accept. She is, however, treading on a fine line and staff is ready to react if deemed necessary.

Bigger - posting both as a member and as a member of Staff.

GTM,

However far your intellect exceeds that of your husband's (and i think it does significantly), I don't see your husband adhering to your advice, and I think trying to manipulate him will ultimately backfire. He will just keep using the tactics he knows how to use, and will use them more ferociously while under stress. At the end of the day, I think your husband needs an independent person to help him process the emotional trauma (house fire/gun shot) you inflicted on him, to help him reflect, to climb a ladder of inference, and to operate at a higher healthy capacity. In the interim, I hope you can find the empathy and patience to support him. Is your husband seeing an IC, or if so, should he find another?

SL

One thing I have learnt from this thread is....you need pickle juice to make chicken nuggets! Is this an American thing?! Sounds good!

Yes Evio you can use pickle juice to brine chicken before cooking. This was popularized in part by the Chick-fil-a chain in the US. It's not necessary but I think it tastes good!

Torso,thank you! Can you actually buy pickle juice in the US or do you drain it out of a jar of pickles?